The realm of Politics, crime conspiracy theories and MAGNIFICENT TERRORISM! Is Trump still in the White House? What was on the 4th 9/11 plane? Spree shooters, serial killers and other feds, join us and find out!

Moderators: Lisker, 51anon

User avatar
wiregrind
Camellia Smile
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:33 pm

liking games used to be uncool

Post by wiregrind »

right now being a "geek/nerd" is a regular lifestyle to people, something that's seen as normal. it used to be way different and I bet you can remember, before the 2010s being into games was seen as shit or made you an outcast nerd and so on. At some point in time during the ps3 generation gaming and similar interests became commoditized
In business literature, commoditization is defined as the process by which goods that have economic value and are distinguishable in terms of attributes (uniqueness or brand) end up becoming simple commodities in the eyes of the market or consumers.
New people who recently got into games don't face the old situation. It's a completely different beast.
So this thread is about how the mainstream culture used to react to gaming/nerd stuff, and the turning point when gaming went from being shunned or frowned upon, to how the mainstream reacts now. And whether you consider it was better or worse before and whether it is better now, maybe worse, in different aspects etc.
I think the reality of being a "nerd" or "into games" was not faithfully replicated in the mainstream, and only a facsimile or certain cherry picked aspects were translated into the mainstream.
So the accuracy of the new mainstream "gaming" is also to be considered. I think shows like the big bang theory were part of the process where a (inaccurate) depiction of nerds and subculture was transitioning towards mainstream appeal. Probably the fact that games make more money than movies was part of the incentive for the cultural transformation. Also the spread of internet and technology massively to everyone must have played a big role in the process.
User avatar
Iwazaru
qishmish
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:58 am

Re: liking games used to be uncool

Post by Iwazaru »

on one hand we have this https://conflictingviews.wordpress.com/ ... of-gaming/

on another hand... "gaming for literally all", aka "every housewife and househusband" because the more auditory reach the more $$$$
wow.. we're sky high.. that shark we just jumped over is tiny.. we're so high right now (c)
User avatar
Jack
Thy ILLnifique
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: liking games used to be uncool

Post by Jack »

We had an in-depth discussion about that somewhere in the OK suggestions thread.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7&start=30
I actually felt that video games were considered much cooler back then. Back in the 80s, if you played video games you were usually considered as some type of degenerate, you were either a stoner, metalhead,or some variant of a thug gangster pimp.

What's different now, is that feminized men are the cultural-mainstream worldwide, so the generic stereotyped nerd is viewed as much more in chic.
Another thing is, what passes for Gaming these days, isn't even real gaming.
You're just watching an interactive movie with minimal gameplay like Death Stranding, Uncharted, Last of Us, the list goes on & on with Sony exclusives, which are the dominant form of gaming.

For me, real gaming was the culture that Tomonobu Itagaki inspired, where games were made to be conquered.
That eventually fell out of favor though since it doesn't make as much money as interactive movies.
Ninja Gaiden was only ever a 2 million seller at most. The only game from that genre that ever sold more than 6 million copies per installment was God of War, and God of War itself is very cinematic and passive since most of the advanced combos were Simon's says mini games.

_______
MANG fuck this shit. I had a much longer response, but for some reason this fucking site always shuts down & crashes my browser. (Luckily this forum does save a cache of the latest preview post.)
Only this site does that to me too. I always get some kind of notification of some fucker trying to make changes to my system that I of course always deny. It's irritating how it happens so frequently to me at this fucking site though. Which prob means I should stop posting here, something is trying to fucking hack me.



Well what I wanted to explain in my more elaborate post is that the games' industry doesn't actually make more money than Hollywood. That's just marketing-speak. It was a response to this comment.
Probably the fact that games make more money than movies was part of the incentive for the cultural transformation.
Have you seen how much money a MCU movie makes? They make profits in the friggin Billions. Hell even Pirates of the Carribean completely outranks most non-Rockstar, Non-CdProjekt or Non-Nintendo games and even those three would just be B-listers when compared to the volume of money that mainstream trending No.1 movies tend to generate.

What's actually happening is that the game's industry grew immensely in size due to the budget of game's development, but the actual increased workforce aren't even gaming related. They're just motherfucking marketers, social media personalities & celeb voice actors, AYYY LMAO!
Nintendo actually makes way more profits than the entire industry because they spend far less on development and marketing.
Nintendo's marketing budget only ever seems to go into one game, but they advertise a bunch of other games along with it. Last week's Nintendo Direct was really just an advertisment for their shitty Pokemon DLC, but it had a few side show attractions like Bravely Default, Xenoblade, & a sneakpeak at the Smash Bros DLC.

What the rest of the games' industry does is spend over 100 millions on just the marketing budget, relying on the marketing blitzkrieg as they treat their gamesoft development programmers like trash and work them to death, to finish the game before the marketing blitzkreig ends.

This is why nearly every game these days is just a reskin of the same fucking game that came out the year prior.
Call of Duty & Assassin's Creed being the two most noteworthy examples of this practice.

What modern gaming does is give the gamesoft programmers only enough time to complete a product shortly before the marketing perioid ends. This results in broken ass unfinished games which then forces them to spend multiple 5 digit amounts of cash just to constantly patch their broken piece of shit.
Some ex Gamesoft developers actually quit game development all together and now way make more money for far less work just from refereeing Wrestling matches, like Aubrey Edwards.

What really alarmed me was when she said that it was a common practice to immediately fire gamesoftware developers soon after they completed a project, :lol: :lol: .
That's exactly why game development is so shit these days. It's the marketers who call all the shots. Not the people who actually develop the damn games.


Something like Destiny 2 actually sold about 2 million copies in only 1 week, but it also has huge Online gaming upkeep costs to maintain, royalty rights to the engine they built the game on, the constant patches they have to pay for as well as having to make enough profit to break even with the marketing budget which for some reason always cost in the multiple 100millions range.

Meanwhile Nintendo can easily profit off of Fire Emblem Three Houses which only sold somewhere over 2 million copies a couple months after release but it most likely saw profits by the first 500k since it's a low budget game that was outsourced to Koei Tecmo who seemed to also cheap out on development. FE3H didn't even have a marketing budget since Nintendo just advertised FE3H, MUA3, & Astal Chain as side shows for Link's Awakening, or maybe it was Luigi's Mansion 3. I forget.





We don't even know how much Desitny 2 actually sold, since they only told us that they made over 500 million dollars, lol. You would have to divide that number by retail price, but I have high doubts that most people bought it at full retail price.
Nintendo Switch is like the only modern gamer culture where the audience actually does buy the majority of the Nintendo 1st party & 2nd party games at the full $59.99 price point.
This is what I fucking hate about modern gaming, how sneaky everything is. It's as though this hobby has been completely taken over by doublespeaking Lawyers.
The common practice is to gloat about copies sold, not how much money you made. Copies sold are a better indicator of how popular the game actually is since copies sold only count the number of games that were bought New at retail and sometimes digital. This indicates how highly valued the game is, when people willingly buy it for $60 - $80 New. Instead of waiting for a month later when the game is only $9 used, lol.
(Not the case with Switch though, coz even used their games still cost $55.)

The point I'm getting at is that Destiny 2 is actually bragging about how much money it made through in-game monetization, rather than how many different people bought the game, lol.
This is another aspect of modern gaming that I don't like.
Modern gaming outside of Nintendo Switch, follows a development cycle where each game is viewed as a vessel for multiple revenue streams where you constantly milk the cow for every paid dlc you can think off from paying money just to change a mere hair color, to paying money just to respec or reset your character's stats.
Fuck, I've had to pay $10 just to reeddit Wrestler stats in those shitty WWE 2k games to make it far more accurate to their real life skill level. (Everything in WWE is fake as fuck, obviously. It's all just some wild delusions & made up world from inside of VInce Mcmahon's senile demented mind.)

Nintendo also does DLC, but their DLC practice is similar to their marketing practice in that it's just one lump sum for a bunch of varied content that come in packs of 3 or 4 depending on the game.
You feel like you got your money's worth if you enjoyed the initial game since their DLC is really just nothing but more of the same game that you were already played, but with expanded content. Nintendo's dlc functions like how expansion packs used to be like during the late 90s.
Inoki Stomps Fools!
ImageImage
Va11 Hall-a Faggot: He's such a Chad. I bet he fucks an Asian bitch every night.
CapN Jack: Who the fuk These moFuggaz? :lol:
User avatar
Iwazaru
qishmish
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:58 am

Re: liking games used to be uncool

Post by Iwazaru »

MANG fuck this shit. I had a much longer response, but for some reason this fucking site always shuts down & crashes my browser. (Luckily this forum does save a cache of the latest preview post.)
Only this site does that to me too. I always get some kind of notification of some fucker trying to make changes to my system that I of course always deny. It's irritating how it happens so frequently to me at this fucking site though. Which prob means I should stop posting here, something is trying to fucking hack me.
that's very weird.

I ran our site trough antimalware checks now and they didnt find anything. Can you screenshot or photo that notification u're getting?
wow.. we're sky high.. that shark we just jumped over is tiny.. we're so high right now (c)
User avatar
Jack
Thy ILLnifique
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: liking games used to be uncool

Post by Jack »

Iwazaru wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:45 am
MANG fuck this shit. I had a much longer response, but for some reason this fucking site always shuts down & crashes my browser. (Luckily this forum does save a cache of the latest preview post.)
Only this site does that to me too. I always get some kind of notification of some fucker trying to make changes to my system that I of course always deny. It's irritating how it happens so frequently to me at this fucking site though. Which prob means I should stop posting here, something is trying to fucking hack me.
that's very weird.

I ran our site trough antimalware checks now and they didnt find anything. Can you screenshot or photo that notification u're getting?
It won't happen again unless I'm logged in for a long time writing a post.

I have no idea what the the notification is. My Mac catches it before I see it. What happens is that the browser shuts down whenever I try to post here. I load it back up and I get a notification saying that Apple would like permission to make changes. I cancel it, since I didn't make any changes. It only happens here.
I can be logged in to Netflix for 5 hours straight and it'll never crash. When I try posting here for about an hour, it'll crash constantly for the last two weeks.
I could try switching to Brave for this site to see if it crashes that too. I use safari while at this site. Both Safari & Brave have natural blockers & privacy settings in place.
Inoki Stomps Fools!
ImageImage
Va11 Hall-a Faggot: He's such a Chad. I bet he fucks an Asian bitch every night.
CapN Jack: Who the fuk These moFuggaz? :lol:
User avatar
wiregrind
Camellia Smile
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:33 pm

Re: liking games used to be uncool

Post by wiregrind »

Jack wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:35 pm Another thing is, what passes for Gaming these days, isn't even real gaming.
You're just watching an interactive movie with minimal gameplay like Death Stranding, Uncharted, Last of Us, the list goes on & on with Sony exclusives, which are the dominant form of gaming.

For me, real gaming was the culture that Tomonobu Itagaki inspired, where games were made to be conquered.
I agree mostly. Even though I like some narrative games like FSR and such, the new breed of "walking simulators" sucks ass in my opinion. They try to be movie-like but I'd rather watch a shit B movie than play through these games.
Jack wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:35 pm Well what I wanted to explain in my more elaborate post is that the games' industry doesn't actually make more money than Hollywood. That's just marketing-speak.(...)
I never heard that viewpoint, I always hear everywhere that games are more profitable and so on.
Jack wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:35 pm Nintendo actually makes way more profits than the entire industry because they spend far less on development and marketing.
Nintendo's marketing budget only ever seems to go into one game, but they advertise a bunch of other games along with it. Last week's Nintendo Direct was really just an advertisment for their shitty Pokemon DLC, but it had a few side show attractions like Bravely Default, Xenoblade, & a sneakpeak at the Smash Bros DLC.
What the rest of the games' industry does is spend over 100 millions on just the marketing budget, relying on the marketing blitzkrieg as they treat their gamesoft development programmers like trash and work them to death, to finish the game before the marketing blitzkreig ends.
I still have my theory that the media boycotted nintendo back in the WiiU days because Nintendo started their "Direct" format and that the Directs were a sort of "fuck you" to the regular media and marketing. I could be wrong though. But doesn't anyone remember how harsh ALL articles were on nintendo back then? Some even would daydream about nintendo leaving the hardware market. I'm glad nintendo's leadership and engineers turned everything around with the switch.
Jack wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:35 pmThat's exactly why game development is so shit these days. It's the marketers who call all the shots. Not the people who actually develop the damn games.
Makes sense, you can tell when a game is so bland and plays it so safe.
Jack wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:35 pmNintendo also does DLC, but their DLC practice is similar to their marketing practice in that it's just one lump sum for a bunch of varied content that come in packs of 3 or 4 depending on the game.
You feel like you got your money's worth if you enjoyed the initial game since their DLC is really just nothing but more of the same game that you were already played, but with expanded content. Nintendo's dlc functions like how expansion packs used to be like during the late 90s.
I remember sakurai or some other leader from nintendo saying that they didn't like how DLC was usually made. I think it was during Smash 4 (WiiU/3DS).

The large budgets and bureaucracy are making games shit. I think this is another reason to see beyond graphics, because PS5 tier graphics are going to require colossal budgets. So everything will be the safest investment it can be; sequels of the same bullshit movie-like series that became popular during the ps3 gen. Also on PC it seems they want to make the game run as shit as possible so more hardware can be sold.

I think indies and smaller studios doing stuff in smaller scales with shit graphics is where we might expect to see interesting stuff. I don't care if there's no raytracing or whatever graphics meme they're pushing.

I think the biggest example I can think of is MGSV engine. Ok the game ended up being shit sure whatever. But the mechanics and the gameplay was 100% perfectly doable on PS3 hardware.
So think about it, the gameplay systems already peaked, gameplay-speaking you can run any current or next gen game on older hardware. The only difference is graphics or load times. But in terms of ideas or mechanics we already have everything we need.
So fuck graphics, I want to see what people do with gameplay. Astral Chain for example does some very interesting stuff with controlling two characters at once and using the chain and such.
User avatar
Jack
Thy ILLnifique
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: liking games used to be uncool

Post by Jack »

Jack wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:35 pm Well what I wanted to explain in my more elaborate post is that the games' industry doesn't actually make more money than Hollywood. That's just marketing-speak.(...)
I never heard that viewpoint, I always hear everywhere that games are more profitable and so on.

It's marketing speak. In reality there's only 2 or 3 games (not made by Nintendo. Ironically, it's actually Nintendo that's bigger than the majority of Hollywood, but you never hear that. Prob coz Sony actually is a Hollywood Film studio and their studio is dying.)
that actually sell better than movies but they come up with this fantasy about how gaming has overtook Hollywood. If that were true, wouldn't you think that Hideous Kojima would be satisfied with his position as a videogame auteur? Kojima is still a wannabe Film-maker.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... ideo_games
Technically Grand Theft Auto V has made over 7 billion dollars, but that figure is only true if 120,000,000 people actually did buy 120 million copies new at full retail price. They didn't, I bought GTA V about 3 times and the only time I ever bought it at $59.99 was on Xbox360 day 1 of release.
The other times I just bought GTAV for $20 new with every dlc that it came bundled with.

The 6 billion or 7 billion claim doesn't make sense to me coz Rockstar games has a networth of only 3 billion or 4billion in March 2020.
Nintendo's networth is 95 billion in March 2020, and that does make sense, coz Nintendo makes the vast majority of the top 50 selling games.

When I look at the 50 movies list, all of them except for the last three have generated over 1 billion $.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_h ... sing_films
These are just ticket sales though. Overall, popular movies make double the reported amount due to DVD, Blu-Ray & Streaming services.

Video games are a bit more complicated to calculate coz something like Minecraft costs about $20 - $25 each on PC, PS4, & Xone.
That's about $4,000,0000,000 if we assume that everyone bought it for at least 20 - $25, but I think that tally is actually including downloads from back when the game was free, LOL!
I don't believe that it really made that much money. The actual creator of Minecraft only made $1 billion off of Minecraft but that was what Microshit paid him to buy the name brand off of him.

When I look at the top selling video games, it's really only Nintendo that's selling over 1 billion and we know this for certain coz nearly every Nintendo game is bought New for full priced, even several years after the game was released. I bought BOTW earlier in the month a few weeks before lockdown, a 3 year old game, that I bought for $65. I did the same thing with Xenoblade 2 the previous month, which is also a 3 year old game.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... ideo_games
GTA 3 sold 17,500,000 copies which is only about 875 million dollars if we assume that everyone bought a copy for the full price of $49.99 new.


This is a case of numbers don't lie. The words may tell you a reality that they want you to believe but the numbers paint a completely different depiction of events that do not gel with reality.
What's really happening is that the gaming industry is constantly trying to break even and they try to cut costs by firing the development-people who made the damn games in the first place, LOL!

Sure on paper they made a lot of money, but they also spent a lot of money so the only number that really matters is how much profit they made.
Outside of a few lucky Indie game devs, Rockstar Games, Blizzard/Activision, CD Projekt Red & Nintendo, everyone else is always one flop away from going bankrupt
This was the case with Capcom all the way up until their surprise hit Monster Hunter World moved them out of the gutter which sold about 14.7 million and generated about $840 million. That's a lot of money for Capcom, because a couple years ago they only had 70 million to operate their entire company.
Keep in mind that a single triple A game costs more than 100 million to make, LOL! (mostly due to marketing.)

Blizz/Act is weird, Activision follows the yearly installment, fire the whole development team model but Blizzard's practices mimic Nintendo in that they usually only make 1 game of a series, per generation.
In CD Projekt's case, it's just Witcher 3 but that game alone made over 1 billion in cash. CDPR currently has a track record that's on par with Nintendo and I don't see that changing with Cyberpunk. That game may actually do better than Witcher 3 due to all of the fan enthusiasm, hype & marketing.





To create a much simpler visual, what the gaming industry is doing, is recycling the same pool of money over & over, which coincides with how they recycle the same exact game over & over but reskin it a bit, and sell it as brand new.
What these numbers don't tell you is how much money they're making from DLC, which is prob where all the real money is being made and that may indeed eclipse the movie-market.

If you were to go that route though, then you would have to include movie-tie ins such as Toys, comics & sometimes even games which are released as part of the marketing budget of the film.
I think movies undoubtedly make way more money than video games especially when it comes to the foreign markets, who don't play nor care about games as much outside of the USA, Europe & Japan.
Hell China has it's own gaming market (Tencent) which is richer than every single company except for maybe Microsoft.

The one aspect where I think gaming does have an advantage on is in-game monetization & DLC, since most games these days will release hundreds of DLC so long as consumers keep paying $30 just to change a simple hair color on their waifu or self-insert character, LOL!
I'm not familiar with any records of how much money DLC generally makes, but it obviously makes over millions of dollars considering how every company does it.
The only DLC number I know of is Monster Hunter Iceforge which sold 5 million downloads at $29.99 so that's about $150million which means that Monster Hunter World is Capcom's only 1 billion dollar making game.


I look at which has much more cultural impact on a worldwide scale and that's definitely movies. Far more people around the world know Avengers Endgame than they do Grand Theft Auto 5 or Minecraft.
People in China know who the Avengers are, but they wouldn't know shit about GTA V, they'd most likely play the bootleg Chinese equivalent, whatever that is.

The myth seems to originate from how one game, GTAV has sold more than the entire Theater ticket movie industry, but we're not being told the whole story. It's a lie through omission, they're equating Theater movie attendance with the entirety of the movie industry which would include Optical media & streaming sales along with merchandising.
GTAV prob did generate much more money, only due to how it has never-endless DLC, and they're still releasing new DLC even though it's an old ass game from 2013.

I still have my theory that the media boycotted nintendo back in the WiiU days because Nintendo started their "Direct" format and that the Directs were a sort of "fuck you" to the regular media and marketing. I could be wrong though. But doesn't anyone remember how harsh ALL articles were on nintendo back then? Some even would daydream about nintendo leaving the hardware market. I'm glad nintendo's leadership and engineers turned everything around with the switch.
Yeah they're always anti-Nintendo because Nintendo isn't following the same business model as the rest of the industry. Too bad this behavior also trickles down to the consumers. I see a lot of PS4 fans who claim that only PS4 has worthwhile exclusives (most of which are just movie games where all you do is walk and sometimes shoot, like Death Stranding.)
They won't even bother with the Switch because of Switch's lack of graphical fidelity. Which is asinine to me coz Smash Bros Ultimate, & BOTW are completely unique experiences that you won't find anywhere else. (As is Xenoblade 2, but that's a more acquired taste. SMash & BOTW are far more casual-friendly.)

A lot of people try to label BOTW as just a generic sandbox game, but those who have done that, have most likely not played the game.
BOTW even makes those lame Far Cry/Assassin Creed style towers fun, coz each tower in BOTW has its own gimmick that must be overcome. It's not a copy & paste job like it is in similar games outside of the Switch.

On top of that BOTW has the best combat from an openworld game and the best physics engine where even the combat is affected by the physics. Not just the environment and the characters' interactions with it.
GTAV has a good physics engine and is really the only other open world game that compares with BOTW's freedom but GTA has stiff combat which completely ignores the physics engine.

Nintendo actually makes more money on average due to how they spend much less on game production & marketing yet they still end up selling twice as many games as their competitors.

Rockstar & Blizzard/Activision are really the only other companies that releases multi billion selling hits on an annual basis, but something is not adding up here coz both of their networths are a little below SEGA, yup that Sonic-SEGA, LOL!
It makes sense with Sega, they don't make shit these days. I'm guessing Nintendo generates far more money on average even when Rockstar & Blizzard can make comparable sales figures, simply due to how Nintendo games are generally bought at full price no matter how old the game is. Nintendo games actually go up in price the older it becomes, lol.

On top of that, Nintendo owns the platform that their games are made on so they make double the cash from the full priced games, which were also made on their platform, using the media that Nintendo owns the rights to. This was actually the reason why Nintendo refused to move over to optical media back in the 90s, coz Sony owns the technology.

The large budgets and bureaucracy are making games shit. I think this is another reason to see beyond graphics, because PS5 tier graphics are going to require colossal budgets.
I'm not looking forward to that either, coz the PS4 barely has any games that play at native 4k which is why I don't give a shit about playing games at 4k resolution. (I think only Spiderman, God of War 4 & Last of Us 2 are native 4k. I'm not sure.)
Who cares when you're just playing an upscaled 720p game (which is what most games are, they just upscale the assets to 4k like Borderlands.) in a resolution that the game's assets weren't even made on?
I think the biggest example I can think of is MGSV engine. Ok the game ended up being shit sure whatever. But the mechanics and the gameplay was 100% perfectly doable on PS3 hardware.
BOTW is everything that MGS V thought it was. People like to meme about how empty BOTW is, but that BOTW actually has 7 or 8 cities which are about as big as Skyrim cities so you only see about 15 people tops, lol.
The amazing part for me though is that BOTW is an action game just like MGSV.
The best part of MGS V was actually Ground Zeroes and too bad Ground Zeroes was just a demo, coz the actual game plays nothing like it.
BOTW's version of Ground Zeroes is Hyrule Castle. In both Ground Zero & Hyrule Castle, you're given multiple options & varying pathways to complete the mission anyway you see fit.

At least BOTW has a fully realized world. It just feels 'empty' due to a lack of dungeons. This wouldn't be a problem were it not a Zelda game. When compared side by side with MGSV, it's clear to see which game followed the sandbox approach of Ground Zeroes far more accurately and it wasn't MGSV.
that's very weird.

I ran our site trough antimalware checks now and they didnt find anything. Can you screenshot or photo that notification u're getting?
It happened again when I typed this post.
Image
That's what I get. I have no idea what it is, coz I always cancel it.
I do use piratebay on that browser and only that browser, so that may be it. You only get full HD Netflix streaming on Safari. I only use this website at Safari coz I keep it seperate from the rest of the normal shit I do on internet. This is the browser where I use my burner accounts, although I just use my normal email for this site.
Inoki Stomps Fools!
ImageImage
Va11 Hall-a Faggot: He's such a Chad. I bet he fucks an Asian bitch every night.
CapN Jack: Who the fuk These moFuggaz? :lol:
Post Reply